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For over a decade, David Tien, Ph.D., has helped hundreds of thousands of people from over 87 countries find happiness, success, and fulfillment in their social, professional, and love lives. His presentations – whether keynotes, seminars, or workshops – leave clients with insights into their behavior, psychology, and keys to their empowerment. His training methodologies are the result of over a decade of coaching and education of thousands of students around the world. Join him on the “DTPHD Podcast” as he explores deep questions of meaning, success, truth, love, and the good life. Subscribe now.
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Stefan Ravalli bio:
Forever studying masterful humans and the art of service the world over to bring their practices to our (sometimes “service-deficient”) culture, Stefan Ravalli combines all that with his expertise in meditation, mindfulness, and communication/listening to raise the game of service professionals – and anyone looking to upgrade how they connect with others (and themselves).
Learning meditation was a game-changer for Stefan. It gave him the inner strength to be his unique self (without the negative self-talk!), connect with others better, and live a healthy happy life. Meditation also makes you realize your potential and gives you the fearlessness to pursue bigger and better things you never thought possible, so Stefan left a leadership role at a high-profile bar/restaurant to India to teach meditation.
After doing that for years and deepening his tea ceremony practice, Stefan realized that the art of service was the richest path of self-cultivation available to him. Serving anything anywhere was the best way to apply and accelerate all the upgrades he got from meditation. So he started Serve Conscious to bring these tools and practices to anyone where service is part of their life – to awaken us to the power of service as a means of growth and self-mastery.
Learn more about Stefan Ravalli here:
Episode 20 Show Notes
3:06 Why is the concept of hypocrisy actually profound?
7:06 Is hypocrisy based in toxic shame?
12:35 What our normal reactions to hypocrisy say about us
16:35 Can you separate the teacher from his teachings?
21:42 What makes you a true hypocrite?
24:55 This happens when you really try to understand people you disagree with
27:56 What happens when you blame others for the emotions that you feel
30:41 What you should do when you find yourself frequently triggered
How Enlightened Hypocrisy is the Key to Joy & Success (w/Stefan Ravalli)
David Tian Ph.D. and Stefan Ravalli get into discussion on how people view hypocrisy and what they feel when they catch themselves being one.
Hypocrisy can be viewed in a positive way, David Tian Ph.D. and Stefan Ravalli explain further why.
David Tian Ph.D. and Stefan Ravalli tell us what to do when we encounter hypocrisy and what to do when we are accused of being one.
Truth, love, and the good. Here we go.
David Tian: Welcome to the DTPHD Podcast. Welcome to you guys watching or listening to this. It has been a while since I’ve put out a podcast here, and I’ve been busy with a lot of online courses and updates. In this special occasion, I thought I would bring out the mics. In fact, these are Stefan’s mics that he brought out, and meeting my good friend Stefan Ravalli for the first time in person for the past 3 years, I think. We haven’t been able to meet in person yet until now.
Stefan Ravalli: Three and a half years.
David Tian: Yeah, almost 4 years. And we are in Disney World Orlando Florida, and I’m here for a family reunion. And it happened to be that Stefan was also doing some business up here, so serendipity has brought us together for this occasion. And we’ve been working on a project that I think all of our audiences would want to hear about, so we want to get this on the podcast for you. And Stefan, welcome. In case people don’t know about you yet, we’ve done a couple guest podcasts together. How about you introduce yourself to our audience, Stefan?
Stefan Ravalli: Yeah. I’m a meditation teacher; that’s my background. I’ve recently begun to basically take it into a playing field where I think principles of Eastern spirituality and meditation really get tested. That’s the world of hospitality and service that I have a deep background in. And I’m basically putting them together. I’m fusing them. I’m saying it all happens here. It doesn’t have to happen in a monastery or a retreat.
Everything I’m working on while serving tables, it’s all tested there. And I get all of the realization and self-mastery tools there. And also, I’m taking principles of service and taking them into everyday life anywhere outside of service and seeing how it elevates that and advances all of the connection possibilities you can have with people and everything. That’s what’s happening. It’s an education project to basically bring these ideas into new contexts, into places they’re not normally brought, and it’s really exciting for me right now.
David Tian: Cool, yeah. Great to meet up again in person. We’ve been having a lot of video chats and working on this project together, so it’s cool to finally meet up in person. I am David Tien, Ph.D. in case you didn’t know that and it’s the first time hearing my voice. For over the past 12 years, I’ve been helping hundreds and thousands of people from over 87 countries attain success, happiness and fulfillment in life and love, in dating, relationships, masculinity and in lifestyle. And now, more recently, we’re working together in the space of meditation, and bringing insights from Asian philosophy to bear on your life, and how that can improve your life.
And one of the themes we wanted to discuss for this podcast is the idea of hypocrisy. This was actually your brainchild. I think you came up with the first step. And so, would you like to just start us off on this theme so we can jam on it?
Stefan Ravalli: Totally, yeah. What I love about the spiritual journey, if you want to call it that, the journey of self-discovery, self-realization is you encounter a lot of ideas and concepts that might have seemed like ugly or dirty. And you see them play out in your life, and you realize the power and virtue of them. And hypocrisy is definitely one of them, and it’s definitely a dirty word. It’s a great way to indict an organization, or a government, or a person. Basically say, “You’re a hypocrite.” Whatever you preach and propose, you don’t practice it yourself or you certainly are not a living example of it to the T. “I found contradictions.”
And if we ever catch ourselves being a hypocrite in life, we definitely tend to indict ourselves as well. So like, “Oh, I’ve got these new spiritual principles I’m practicing, and I’m attempting to live, and I’m telling people about.” But “Oh no, I got angry, and I criticized someone, I’m such a hypocrite.” And then we’re like, “Oh, I failed.” As though hypocrisy is a failure. And for me, I don’t like to look at anything as a failure or as a stigma in any of these, like kind of dirtier or grimier aspects of living in life to be a sort of diversion off the spiritual path.
In fact, it is an absolute beacon of progress when you encounter hypocrisy in your life. It’s basically ideas that you’ve been practicing living, attempting to live, have now run into a new obstacle, a new testing ground, a new something. Tension occurs within yourself, and that’s how you deepen your connection and your understanding of these ideas that are really complex, and really do have trouble fitting into the difficulties of life. And what I want to do a celebrate that tension and celebrate those feelings of getting knocked off track, basically.
David Tian: Yeah, when you’re improving in something, it’s a process. And at the beginning, you have to embrace this identity that you’re now this person… We’ll take, for example, meditation. Now, you’re a meditator. At some point, you go from trying it out to actually thinking of yourself as, “I’m somebody who meditates.”
And yet, there are still going to be those days when you don’t meditate, and you fall off the bandwagon, so to speak. Or you fall off that habit and you might think, “Oh, now I can’t claim that I’m a meditator.” But that’s part of the journey, right? It’s part of the process. In the world society seems now, especially in the modern West, bringing to task shit that you’ve done 20 years ago, and now throwing it in your face, and trying to hold you accountable to something that was so long ago and saying, “You’re a hypocrite because at this earlier time you were thinking a different way.”
That to me is a sign of the deep immaturity, and this is like a deep immaturity in the society. So, as you become more mature, and you see this among the Buddhist icons or the sages in Asian literature through history, that there’s a kind of maturity that comes from… Whatever question the student is asking is coming from that student’s perspective and background. So, the teacher teaches to that student’s background at that level. In fact, in Buddhism, in Buddhist teachings, there’s a whole term for it: upaya, it’s like expedient means which are, you teach it for what the student needs to hear at that point in his life.
And the student might be really green, and super gung-ho, and enthusiastic and like, “I will never betray any of these principles ever.” Sort of like Paul, or was it Peter, before he became the one who denied Christ or whatever. That’s also the Christian tradition. And you’re like, “Okay.” The teacher says, “Yes, I can see this. Your enthusiasm is very laudable.” Or whatever, right? And then the inevitable happens, the person backslides, he betrays. He’s not perfect, it turns out, and the teacher said, “Oh, yes. I knew this was going to happen.” And just come on back. This has happened to all of us, and it’s not something you need to hold yourself accountable to because the hypocrisy and the fear of it is based in toxic shame.
That if I have any contradiction in myself, then what does that say about me? “I’m shameful, I’m not worthy of being exposed to the world. I’m not worthy of representing these values in putting myself out there.” But the mature realizes that nobody’s perfect. It’s never 100%, and it’s all a process. And embracing that whole process includes forgiveness when things change, forgiveness when you’re in the transformation, when you’re on the path and having more grace for yourself along the way. I’m mixing Christian terms along with Buddhist terms and Confucian terms.
Stefan Ravalli: You’re a hypocrite!
David Tian: Yes, I’m a hypocrite. I’m mixing. I’m a mixer. I see this in the modern world, of the sort of witch hunts trying to hold people accountable to stuff that was so long ago and not realizing people change, and they really do transform. And they really do, can have, a 180-degree change while still being the same person, and that being all part of their journey, and what makes their lives richer, and makes their personal experience that much more stronger, and that much more able to help others because they’ve gone through all that.
Stefan Ravalli: Yeah. And I think the biggest problem we have, and it definitely is a discouraging agent for anyone interested in a more conscious, spiritual, mindful path, is this idea of identity. So, as soon as we’re doing this stuff, we now have a certain identity as a practitioner that we’re supposed to uphold. And then we do something that somehow doesn’t represent this identity, and now, that is a black mark on our spiritual report card.
When I think the whole idea of you practicing anything like this is, you are not this rigid vessel of virtue that has to be carried through the world as the shining, flawless example. You are a lab rat and in a very, very valuable way to everyone. You are taking these ideas, running into walls with them, and then now, you have something to use to instruct others. “I experienced this tension, this contradiction, this challenge carrying forward, this better person that I’d like to be.” And you now have something you could use to help people.
So, hypocrisy is something that can be used to assist, not something used to discredit someone else, or discredit yourself and say, “Oh, I’m not a good representative. I’m a hypocrite.” No, you’re an ideal representative because you’re a hypocrite; because you experienced these contradictions and you can now pass on your experiences and what you’ve gained from them. And we’ll do this. I mean, I find myself still castigating myself.
And my wife and I do this to each other. She’s a meditation teacher as well, and we would get into some argument, and get lost in this lower animal battle. And then all of a sudden, we’re like, “Oh, you see? You’re a meditation teacher, huh? I thought you were. What’s this about, then?” And so, we always do this. We always take the other person’s proposed identity and then use it against them to say, “Your behavior is not reflecting that.”
But then after we come to our senses, we realize that we’ve just gone through a very valuable experience and that is really what the spiritual process is all about. You are not just glossing over the world in this big, beautiful, happy picture of ‘everything is perfect’. You’re actually cultivating your ability to hold contradictory ideas in your awareness. I think we’re all one, and we all need to get along, and we all need to treat each other as an extension of ourselves.
And at the same time, I need to have boundaries, and I need to know when to put someone in their place. And these two ideas are going to grind against each other, and it’s our own process of growing awareness and awakening as practitioners that will allow us to reconcile them as gracefully as possible to be able to benefit the collective, basically.
David Tian: Yeah. I’d push it also for my industry of helping guys with their dating issues, and relationships, and so on, that there’s also a judgmentalism that comes along with the hypocrisy as a major component of it. So, in one of the Facebook groups that I’m in, I saw a post recently where somebody had posted an article from some guru or something. And I don’t know this guru. And one of the moderators of that group came in the comments and said, “I know this guru personally, and he does not live his own philosophy. So, that invalidates everything he’s saying here. Take it all with a grain of salt. I would prefer to just delete this post, but I’m going to leave this here as a cautionary tale. This person doesn’t live what he preaches.”
And then all these people came in like, “Oh, thank you for pointing that out. Oh, good thing I didn’t read the article.” And that kind of bullshit, right? And I was like, every one of these motherfuckers should take a course of philosophy because there’s a fallacy, the ad hominem fallacy which every now hopefully understands now that I’ve just said that, which is against the man, where you attack the man. It’s got nothing to do with the philosophy. So, you could actually have a great teaching, might have no problems with it whatsoever, even though the person disseminating the information has difficulty applying it.
For instance, I might have just really jittery hands and I’m trying to figure out how to use the fire extinguisher. So, I’m reading the instructions on the fire extinguisher, it says pull this, then yank this, then point it at this, but I’m just super nervous, I can’t do it. It does not invalidate the instructions from the fire extinguisher, and the fire extinguisher itself is perfectly functional. I just suck at using it. That doesn’t mean that if I tell you, if I were to read out the instructions to you, that you can’t come along and use the same instructions to get the intended result. So, this is one of the reasons why I want you to learn philosophy as well: clearer thinking.
But this hypocrisy is, in a sense, they’re trying to accuse that guy of hypocrisy. He doesn’t walk the talk or he doesn’t live what he preaches. I’ve seen people use this fallacy so many times to basically invalidate, or sabotage, or undercut everything that somebody says based on the time that he acted out of character at Starbucks, or whatever. He’s like really pissed. “Don’t listen to anything that guy says. He’s clearly not a teacher. He’s not got it together.” And it’s actually a reflection of our own fears. Our own fears of shame that we’re not perfect, we’re not 100% perfect, and we project it onto these other figures that threaten us in a way of like, “Oh, this guy is perfect. What does that say about me? Why can’t I be as great as this guy? Oh, I found this guy’s flaw.”
We’re outside right now and an airplane’s going over us. And also, in case you hear the fountain… Oh, it’s a helicopter. We got a fountain in this really cool courtyard here at the Sheraton Resorts. So, you’re hearing lots of background noise which our sound editor is going to have to do some tricky editing to it get out of the bandwidth there. So, returning to the point: being judgmental as a common response from dealing with our own shame about not being perfect and seeing somebody being held up as a teacher as some kind of authority who is better than us in some way.
In the back of our mind, it’s very tempting to be able to bring that guy down to earth, or woman, so that it washes our own sense of insignificance. We’re looking to bring this person down. So, you have to actually resist that temptation, that normal tendency in the human being to bring down that which is held up above you, and try to look for, “What can I learn from that person regardless, especially what that person is teaching, regardless of the person himself? Can I separate the teachings from the person, so no matter what, however that person’s living, I can still get the value out of the teachings?” Those are two separate things.
Stefan Ravalli: Yeah, and anyone that’s looking for a perfect teacher is probably looking for the wrong thing. Because what they’re looking for is teachings they don’t have to question. And it’s like, “Oh, this guy is perfect. Everything he’s telling me, I can just follow to a T and not have to worry about it.” But in fact, anything you learn, you’re going to have to apply your own sense of judgment to. And you’re going to have to apply it to your life in your own way, in your own, clumsy way, just as this teacher is attempting to. And there’s lots of ways to evaluate a teacher, and there’s lots of ways that I have actually decided that, yeah, a teacher’s character was not something that made what they were teaching trustworthy.
That can happen occasionally, sure. But to invalidate a teacher because they’re not a perfect, or whatever your idea of perfect representation of what they teach, that’s actually counterintuitive to actually do that sometimes. Because I think sometimes, the best teachers are people that struggle with what they are teaching. So, basically, let’s say someone is naturally really compassionate or naturally really loving, like they’re just so good at it. Sometimes, they might not even know how they’re even doing that. Just like a natural athlete. They’re not going to make a great coach necessarily. They just do things so fluidly without thinking. It’s actually those that have struggled and have had to use their own sort of mental models and frameworks to overcome that struggle that can make better teachers.
David Tian: Absolutely, yeah. I have never had to struggle with alcoholism or any addictions at an extreme level. So, you should not listen to me…. So, I don’t have as much to share about a 12-step program. The people you should really be listening to are the ones who’ve actually struggled with it, so they have so much more to share. They have so many more insights and experiences to share with you. But if you were to say, “Oh my god, don’t listen to that alcoholic talk about alcoholism. He’s uniquely disqualified from this because he’s an alcoholic.” You’re actually pushing aside the one person you should be listening to.
This is also connected to the dark side. Those who have grappled with their shadows, or their dark sides, or the parts of them that they’ve had to fight to become better, those are the people who you can learn the most from. Because they not only have the theoretical, but they have the practical knowledge, and they have the experience, and the stories. They know it from the inside, so they have the experiential knowledge. It’s just like if you hear a war veteran talk about how dangerous war is and how dangerous these weapons are, or whatever, it’s a lot more meaningful than hearing it from me.
Because I have only fired guns at shooting ranges, totally safe. I was a middle class kid, right? So, in Canada, we can’t get guns, so don’t listen to me about how to fire a gun. I’ll read the book and tell it to you, but you’d be much better off with somebody who has grappled with the dark side of the weapons, of the fallout from war, of watching his friends die in battle, and all of that. And he can tell you about, from his personal experiences, and leads you through, and guides you through, and coaches you through how to best use these weapons and how to best prepare for the battle. So, we end up shaming those who have, in some ways, the most to teach.
I’ll bring up a controversial example. When I was a kid, there were a bunch of TV preachers, evangelists on TV. They ended up as preachers and pastors of gigantic churches, megachurches, and then it turns out that they were both cheating on their wives. In fact, this story went so far that the mistresses got approached by Playboy Magazine, in both cases, I think, to pose nude as the preacher’s mistress and all of this. Anyway, they were disgraced, and thrown out of the church, and all of this.
Eventually, they tried to make a comeback. I remember seeing as a teenager, “Woah, this guy is still trying.” So, as a conservative Christian, you all judge the hell out of them. “I would never do that,” that kind of thing. Now, he’s preaching about… and I can’t remember the specific names, and I don’t want to use them as specific examples because I didn’t look it up before this. But imagine this fallen, disgraced preacher, after 10 years of struggling with the shame, and all of that, and his own guilt or whatever, and he repents, and goes through a process, and now he comes out saying, “This is the danger of grappling with lust.” or “Here’s what happens when you prioritize your career over your relationship, and here’s exactly how you could fall into this error.”
You should listen to that guy. He’s actually gone through it, and he’s come out the other end and sharing these lessons with you. Instead of saying, “He’s got nothing to teach. Look at him. He’s a cheater.” He’s teaching about cheating. He’s the guy you should listen to.
Stefan Ravalli: Yeah. Have you sublimated your struggles and your mistakes into valuable teachings? Then, you’re a valuable teacher. Then, you’re not really a hypocrite at that point. You’re a hypocrite if you’re pretending that you’re not making mistakes, I guess. That would be something to worry about; someone who is pretending that they are perfect. And I have dropped teachers like that before, those that try to emanate this image of perfection. But I tend to trust those that are vulnerable more, now. And people will tend to trust people that are vulnerable just in everyday life; those that do admit that they are struggling, rather than those that have this, or are attempting to, promote this affectation of fully realized awesome, this veneer. That’s untrustworthy.
But those that are full of tension and contradiction, those people I tend to trust because they’re being honest.
David Tian: I try to learn from teachers… Well, I try to learn from everyone, including little kids. I’d be spending the evening with my three and six-year-old nephews, and I try to look for… It’s pretty easy to learn. They’ll teach you some stuff. They’ll force you to learn some things. But one of the things I’ve noticed over the past few years is, when I meet… Have you ever tried meeting one of your heroes, somebody you’ve been following for a while, and then you meet them in person, and they don’t match the way that you thought they’d be, the vibe that they’d give out?
And maybe that’s the way with some people and me. Like, when they meet me. I don’t know. But that’s been the way for me meeting some of the people I looked up to and admire, meeting them in person, getting in-person consults, and interacting with them. It’s different. I don’t really like them. I don’t really jive with them, and some of the things they say in private might be something I disagree with and I didn’t know I disagree with them on that. Yet still, that does not invalidate any of the benefit and the value that I derive before that. I don’t then look back on all that I’ve learned and just throw it all out the window. I have a brain and I’ve been trained to think analytically. And I can separate the man from the message.
Sometimes, you do want to, as a heuristic, “Whose message should I pay the most attention to and dive deeper in?” And then you might be going off the person’s vibe, or even his voice. I’ve been criticized for my voice occasionally, like on YouTube. “I can’t stand your voice and the way you babble.” Hey, I get it. But what have I said? You’re just attacking the style, but what about the substance and the content? And there are people I disagree with vehemently, and people who I just… When I hear their voices, or when I see them on the video, it grates on me. And yet, I try to listen to their argument. What are they saying? What are their reasons? What’s the evidence? I try my best, and we’re all partial, and subjective. We’re all mired in that. I try my best to do that, to try to sift out my feelings for this person from the message that’s coming across and evaluating the message on its own merits.
This has been great, because what it’s done for me is, it’s allowed me to sit with the tension that is happening emotionally for me, like, “Oh, I don’t really like this person.” And sit with that longer to get to the message. And I found that some people who really grated on me at the beginning, if I stay with that message, I can really now reach as a point where I can see it from their view point, even though I still disagree. I can see why they have that view. We were talking about this casually the other day, like, being at that point where you can sit with people from completely different viewpoints and be able to enter their point of view and see why they would have that view; and how they would arrive at that, and how, to them, it might be coherent.
And then it becomes easier to empathize with them on that. That’s just a really great life skill, and you’ll be able to derive a lot more wisdom from a lot more sources if you’re able to do that.
Stefan Ravalli: Yeah, I know. You’re able to get there more quickly if you take accountability for what you’re experiencing when that person is bothering you. Because the first thing we’ll do is just dismiss them and say, “Oh, well, it’s because they’re obviously this, this, this, or this. They’re obviously an idiot in this way.” Without even questioning why. Like, why you actually think that. And this is a very… I heard this discussed by Buddhist teachers a lot. If somebody triggers you, then they have something to teach you about yourself. If you have a strong reaction to anything, there is something in you that needs to be examined.
And you seek to gain a lot from. That’s why they say the best teachers are those that upset us, because if something is triggering us intensely, it needs to be worked out and examined. And just simply let yourself have such strong feelings and not question your own mental constructs around that is a missed opportunity to learn about yourself. And then you’ll have gratitude for these people that grind against you, that wear on you, for revealing more about who you are.
Besides just learning what they may have to teach just from their own perspective, but you yourself will expand your self-understanding.
David Tian: That was so great. We got to take that clip out and put it out separately. You said when somebody triggers you, they have something to teach you. That on its own should be its own quote. We’ll make it a quote card for you, because that’s brilliant, that’s so true. And the current society puts the blame on the triggerer instead of being able to go both ways and say, “Okay, I’m being triggered.” And maybe there’s some blame on that person for doing that on purpose. But what can I learn? Why am I triggered by this person? What is it in me that’s being called out here? I’m a member of the Subtle Asian Traits groups. There’s several of them, and one of them is over a million people.
And I see so many Asians who are triggered by people being white. They named a bunch of these thinkers that are prominent, many of them are associated with right winged thinking, and they just… I asked them, “What did they say that made you feel offended?” And they couldn’t come up with any arguments. It was almost like just by the very nature of their personality, or probably their skin color, or the way they looked, or their background, and what they were projecting was triggering these guys. And of course, it comes out of being bullied when you were a child and having racial epithets thrown at you. You’re getting triggered back into your childhood days at the school yard when the white kids were beating you up and stuff, and saying chink or whatever it is.
That’s what’s happening with you, because it’s not happening in the actual content that you’re clipping here, that you’re showing, and they don’t stop to think about it. They just blame the other person for causing those emotions to them. And it’s a very immature and neurotic approach to life. And I thought, “Oh, that’s just a pocket of people. That’s just a minority of people happening in these little pockets.” And I just see it more and more. So, I guess it’s a good message to put out there, to be aware of those tendencies in yourself if you can spot those happening.
Stefan Ravalli: Yeah, and doing that is just a real tragic relinquishing of your own power. Because basically, you’re saying, how I feel is just passively dependent on who’s around me. “If white people are around me, I feel agitated. So, you know, life would be better if white people weren’t around me.” Not, “Life would be better if I somehow overcame and reconciled my nature to get triggered by white people.” That would be a better place to start. Like, that analogy that Ramana Maharshi talks about, which was actually… I think [INAUDIBLE] David talked about it before that, the Tibetan Buddhist monk from hundreds of years ago.
He said, “Why try and cover the world with leather? That’s a lot of work. Just make shoes for yourself.” And it’s just such a simple principle, and all of us would hear this and say, “Of course. Why would anyone try and be covering the world with leather?” Well, you do that in a subtle way every time you think someone else is the problem.” And create a rationalization around why. Why you don’t need to change, you just need to somehow create this utopian environment around you to feel happier, you know.
David Tian: Yes. Don’t try to cover the world in leather; make yourself some nice, leather shoes. That’s awesome. And if you ever have trouble, if you find yourself having trouble a lot with being triggered and being out of control, what you ought to do is to develop a meditation habit. You ought to learn meditation, practice it on a regular basis. It will save your life. I’m not exaggerating right now. So, maybe that’s a good way to end this podcast. Both of us have to run to dinner reservations, so thanks so much for listening. Stefan, how do they find you?
Stefan Ravalli: I am on www.ServeConscious.com. Find me there. Send me a ding. I’d love to talk to you just about what you’re going through in your life, especially if you have actually service challenges, professionally or otherwise. And I have a podcast that’s on iTunes, it’s the Serve Conscious Podcast. I’ve been having a lot of fun with that, having awesome conversations with David and others, and I’m sure we’ll have many more on there. So yeah.
David Tian: Awesome. Yeah, go visit ServeConscious.com for more of Stefan. And for me, DavidTianPHD.com. You can find all of the previous episodes of The DTPHD Podcast on there, as well as our vlog, and our Man Up episodes as well and lots of other great content for you. So, thanks so much for listening and I’ll talk to you again soon.